why are you hitting yourself stop hitting yourself

[whynot]

One of the many things that makes me :-/ about the J2 BB Haitifail is the following reaction to other people's frustration:

"If this has taught me anything, you shouldn't even try to write POC."
"Yup. This is definitely what I've taken away from the whole clusterfuck."

It is pretty saddening (if unsurprising) that concern over misrepresentation only gets you promises of non-representation. What this attitude is implying is that minorities are to be blamed for their own erasure. If only we had presented our case differently! If only we hadn't got too angry! These race/culture discussions aren't meant to be roadblocks. If anything, they're speed bumps: they make you slow down for the good of everyone and actually make you watch where you're going. Voila relevant links:

Three Forms of Rhetoric Which Are Obnoxious
"Damned if you do, damned if you don't." Please please please please retire this phrase! ... A better way to phrase the feeling of frustration at being unable to get an advance guarantee of never being criticized by POC is this: "No writer is immune from criticism."

I really like this one: Being An Imaginary Conversation Which I Have Been Silently Holding in my Head With Many, Many People I Have Seen Around the Internets Lately
IMAGINARY DAVID RAVINE: So you're saying that this is how to be smooth and avoid a flamewar?
ME: No! I am saying that this is how to be a dipshit and still avoid a flamewar!

This one is more a general how-to than specific to the topic at hand, but still awesome: Derailing for Dummies.
The best part is, you don't even have to be a white, heterosexual, cisgendered, cissexual, upper-class male to enjoy the full benefits of derailing conversation! Nope, you can utilise the lesser-recognised tactic of Horizontal Hostility to make sure that, despite being a member of a Marginalised Group™ yourself, you can exercise a privilege another Marginalised Group™ doesn't have in order not to heed their experience!

[originally posted at http://whynot.dreamwidth.org/24977.html | comments]

Comments

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

<3 your links. [also, dumb question, J2 is the two actors who play Sam and Dean, right?]

That argument makes me SO MAD especially because, like, a lot of the time it's coming from people who would never in a million years accept it about, like, female characters. ARGH. It's not just write/get yelled at or don't write at all! YOU COULD WRITE WITH LESS FAIL. and also, also, it's not like POC are actually waiting for someone to slip up EVEN A LITTLE so they can, I dunno, flame the author forever or something.

One of the things that bothers me so much about the Narnia fandom is that we're so good at critiquing the misogyny issues but we're not very good at the race issues, and I absolutely include myself in that because how often do I write about non-white characters in Narnia? NOT OFTEN. /tangent

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

Ya, Jensen Ackles is Dean and Jared Padalecki (Padalolki) is Sam. From what I've gathered, they are Sam and Dean with the personalities reversed, minus daddy issues?

I like the comment on the anonmeme that's like, "Well, I don't know many POC so I can't help but fall back on stereotypes, srs2say!" UMMMMMM. This is also a problem, anon!

how often do I write about non-white characters in Narnia? NOT OFTEN.
WELL, have you heard about the Revenge Racebending Ficathon (http://dark-agenda.dreamwidth.org/7371.html)? omg, Indonesian immigrant SPN here I come. I foresee that such a thing might produce some fail, but ummmm innocent until proven guilty, and I am tentatively ridiculously excited. The discussion it generates will certainly be valuable. I reckon that even though the initial question that piqued my interest is "What if Sam and Dean were Indonesian immigrants?", the real question I'll be exploring is, "What if Indonesian immigrants were hunters?"

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

SO MANY PROBLEMS. Also anon, also, you could maybe read more authors of color! Then you would have some basis for writing that would not be stereotypes, and also then maybe you would be less likely to fail if you tried to makes friends with POC.

Omfg. I don't know how much time I will have but omfg. (whatever happened to your Indonesian Narnia thing? Is that still happening? Because it sounded like the coolest thing EVER.) And that is so interesting! Because even in the first episode, the guys are all like "We are secret agents! We are related to your boyfriend! We are totally trustworthy and official!" and would that work if they weren't white? They would have so many more problems being nosy.

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

lol who the hell knows what happened to my Indonesian Narnia thing. I do mean to write it, but there are a hundred things I mean to write and here is another one, I guess. SOMEDAY.

ONLY 500 WORDS, WYRM.
and would that work if they weren't white?
RIGHT?! So many questions. Also if they were multilingual, they would slip into non-English at crime scenes when they're talking about what could have done this.

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

Man, my to-write list is like a mile long. UNFAIR.

LAST TIME I SAID THAT I WOUND UP WITH LIKE 5000.

Oooh, they would. Lass, this is sounding like the best thing ever. Because, like, they have white privilege and it is so helpful to them with their job thing, and how would they have had to adapt otherwise? (if they weren't Christian, would the mythology be less Christian too? Or would they have to play catchup?)

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

Dean was an atheist before the whole angels/apocalypse thing, though Sam apparently used to pray. And I wouldn't exactly call Dean faithful now either, despite having met angels. IT WOULD BE HILARIOUS IF THEY WERE CHRISTIAN BUT GOT CO-OPTED FOR ANOTHER RELIGION'S APOCALYPSE THOUGH. Can you imagine?!?!?

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

OMFG THAT WOULD BE THE BEST. Can you imagine the soulsearching?! Going into confession* and being like "Can there be...other gods too?" and getting a no, and then being like "Because...um." And then having to go to the library for research because you don't know this! And then deep down being like HOW CAN THIS WORK I DON'T BELIEVE IN THESE GODS.

*or wherever

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

RIGHT?! And how does that change the way you look at your church, your pastor and his faith, how does that change what you feel when you're sitting in the pews with your hands clasped together and your face turned upward, how does that change. It would make a difference also whether the co-opting religion is the one true pantheon in the universe or whether they're sharing creation with a bunch of other pantheons too. Is it that all these gods are just humanity's dreams of them? In the beginning was the word and it was man's word.

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

Because if one of the cards goes, does the whole house tumble down? Or can you reconcile it, maybe, your religion isn't true in this version of reality, but you feel it, so where does that leave you? Who can you pray to now? Or maybe it doesn't matter, because they're all the same, in the end--you made them up, so you can change them too.

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

you made them up, so you can change them too.
OMG. YES, HUMANITY AS CREATOR. God has humanity angst! God is finding humanity! God's faith in humanity! God asking humanity for forgiveness and penance! God wanting humanity to save him!

That was me wot just added you on my gchat, don't be scared!

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

YESSS. Because God needs people, right? Or else what is the point of the sacrifices and the temples and everything?

alksjd have you had gchat this whole time??

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

It's the whole thing about how, by protecting something, you are giving it power. Dean does this to Sam, humanity to God, and soooo God to humanity! WHAT FIC CAN BEST EXPLICATE THIS THEME I WONDER.

I only just got gchat like... last month? But now I am on it all the goddamn time, so WATCH OUT. (It was timely also, as I had forgotten my password to AIM at the time and couldn't be bothered pursuing that a third time.)

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

alksjd YES EXACTLY. And you think it makes you the powerful one in the relationship, and it does, but also it doesn't, because you are conferring status.

since I haven't met God stuff in SPN yet I am going to say NARNIA. Where Aslan protects and loves them, but damn, he went really far to make sure a couple of kids would know him.

<33333

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

I really like the idea of a god who is lonely and frustrated. PYGMALION AND GALATEA, YANNO.

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

And then your creation doesn't live up to your expectations all the time! IT'S HARD, OKAY. You make someone to love you but then sometimes they don't. You make them to love you but you're kinda distant, you don't know how to be a good parent, you give gifts but you don't answer the phone.

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

You make someone to love you but then sometimes they don't.
GAAAAAH THIS IS THE THING, RIGHT. Because if you're really an excellent creator, and you like to think you are, your creations tend to take on a life of their own. And this tends to bite you in the ass. You love them so much that you give them everything, so much so that they don't need you, and when they do need you, sometimes it's in ways that you don't understand or can't cater to.

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

You think maybe they just need food, and shelter, but it turns out they need someone to talk to too. It turns out they have all these problems, problems you never through about because you're immortal, so what do you know about it?

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

God just wants to be looooooooooved :( omg HE IS TRYING SO HARRRRRD, CREATING'S SO HARRRRRD. lol, apparently he is the biggest woobie. <333 I like this God, I wanna know more about his/her/its deal.

I feel like I mention this every other whenever, but have you read 'Abandon' by Pico Iyer, because this is what it's about.

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

Lol, God is just, like, out of his depth or something. Like those people who adopt a puppy because they think it'll be nice but don't know what the hell to do.

No...::amazons::

[zempasuchil.livejournal.com]

Thanks for linking to that big long spnpermanon debate. there is stupid stuff and smart stuff and basically it is like having other people be confused for me and getting to watch them figure it out. re: the internet research/knowing the culture debate: oh structuralist baggage! when will it go awaaaay

I really really like the "no writer is immune from criticism" bit.

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

Sure thing. I think it's an important examination to have, and the frankness of the meme is helpful in this regard.

"no writer is immune from criticism"
This is the thing! NO ONE IS SAFE. XD

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this post and the links. Those arguments seem to crop up every time and ugh. I like your speedbump analogy.

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

Awesome. Yeah man, sometimes doing the right thing != not getting yelled at. A causes B, but B is not A.

[marycontraire.livejournal.com]

Since I am completely (and happily) removed from SPN fandom, this is actually the first I've heard of all this. Thanks for sharing some good links, even if the entire incident makes me want to bash my head against my desk repeatedly.

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

OH THE FAIL AND INDIGNATION. Merlin fandom was never this action-packed. But I guess give it time. XD

[anjali-organna.livejournal.com]

Your speedbump analogy is spot on. I've been following this whole thing with interest as well as sadness, because I do think that even though I am also a PoC, that doesn't mean that I am not just as capable of being thoughtless or stupid or ignorant in my own work regarding other people's cultural identities (Hey, world! Just because I'm brown doesn't mean I automatically understand the experiences of any and every other brown person I might happen to meet!). So while it's tragic that this happened at all, and that people were hurt by it, at the very least it's spurred people to make some really wonderful, thoughtful, eye-opening essays.

My favorite so far is this one: First and primarily: in order for this story to exist, a person has to be able to sit down in front of the television, watch graphic depictions of horrific tragedy, destruction, pain and death, and react as if they are watching a drama unfold for their enjoyment.

[twoskeletons.livejournal.com]

There have been so many essays, I couldn't even keep up. Thanks for reccing this one! I appreciate it.